people who are in favor of communism/socialism
Lethargica
Regular
I seriously don't get it. I don't understand people who live under a capitalist state has the right mind to actually think communism should be in power.
Communism believes that the people are too dumb and stupid to handle capitalisism, so you must take capitalism from the dumb and stupid people, and give it to the "all-wise, all-knowing" state. Bill gates, a high-school dropout, said that he knew a friend that studied hard, got good grades, and got a job in microsoft. I own microsoft".
My point is that, ANYONE can make it big, even someone as stupid as you are. You just need to get out of the social implications that people are forcing you to do:get a job, shut-up and do your work, don't quetion why people have more than you.
And thus, sparks revolts for the need for socialism, communism, because not only you work at a shitty job, you are working for someone else's dreams. I'm not saying you should "make it big" I am only suggesting that you are revolting for the wrong reasons, and one of the reasons, which is pretty ironic, is because of society teaching you to get the coupon for your interviews.
Communism believes that the people are too dumb and stupid to handle capitalisism, so you must take capitalism from the dumb and stupid people, and give it to the "all-wise, all-knowing" state. Bill gates, a high-school dropout, said that he knew a friend that studied hard, got good grades, and got a job in microsoft. I own microsoft".
My point is that, ANYONE can make it big, even someone as stupid as you are. You just need to get out of the social implications that people are forcing you to do:get a job, shut-up and do your work, don't quetion why people have more than you.
And thus, sparks revolts for the need for socialism, communism, because not only you work at a shitty job, you are working for someone else's dreams. I'm not saying you should "make it big" I am only suggesting that you are revolting for the wrong reasons, and one of the reasons, which is pretty ironic, is because of society teaching you to get the coupon for your interviews.
Comments
Communists = Lick arses
Capitalists = Kick arses
Seriously, anyone that wants any kind of communism is fucked in the head. When you tell them to go and live in XXXville for a while, or refer to former socialist countries and how fucking backwards they were under communism/socialism, they say 'ah, well, it wasnt true communisms see duh duh duh'.
Their is a reason why true communism has never lasted.
It cant. When it has existed, it has existed for a few moments at least, and then human nature took over in some one and snuffed it out.
Just because we are humans and we can.
The soviet union fell because of the economic pressure of the war in Afghanistan combined with the arms race. It had nothing to do with Socialism being a bad economic system. If capitalism is so great can you explain the great depression and the current economic problems with the US? Capitalism allows greed to overtake the common good.
Jobs get outsourced because CEO's dont want to pay a decent wage. Goods have arbitrary value placed on them at the whim of corporations. Capitalism in it's pure form is one o the most self destructive systems around. Even basic rights such as health care are determined by the dollar. Capitalism worships the dollar.
You come across as one of those crazy preacher type dudes the way you post. If you mean 'worship the dollar' as the individual being given the power of self determination in respect that they have control over their own economic activity, then yes, I bet they do.
You cite the current financial downturn and the 1920's depression and asking questions such as 'if it can get that bad, how can it be good?', then look at the worsts of a communist / marxist / socialist system produce. It has mainly been the murder of millions of people followed by living in cold, horrible conditions eating shit food all the time and dying of an industrial disease at a young age.
Any form of socialism has also been proven to inhenrently favour dynastic succession, be it familial or otherwise.
Don't spout shit about getting it working properly, it does not work end of story.
Capitalism is about exploiting people, making them do more for less. Maximizing profits for a select few on the backs of the majority.
Socialism is about protecting the rights of workers by regulating Industrial Relations, creating trade unions and building social welfare. It still allows for wealth.
Look at Canada and Sweden and Australia tell me what we have is not better than what you have.
You know that most Americans would never admit that. Most of them have never left the country lol
EDIT: Also, in America, everyone is caught up in the idea that they, or their kids will make it big one day. Somehow, they're going to get the big house and the nice car and the fancy French mustard, and so they often confuse their interests with the interests of the wealthy. This is why lowly payed workers march for the sake of lower corporate taxes, the abolishment of the estate-tax and other such nonsense that won't benefit them in the least.
From what I hear of Australia, half of the country has no fucking water at all and ther other half has recently had half the pacific dropped on it. The last time the UK had that much water on top of it as a % of its landmass covered, it was an ice age and we were coverd in ice.
So fuck australia, it has a ginger welsh mayor and lost the ashes. Your wine, although palatable, will never be on par with french wine and you let a bunch of abos tell you people shouldnt touch a rock.
Sweden has recently let in a load of people that do not belong there and is going to shit as we speak and Canada, while I have nothing against it, is mediocre.
These countries you mention are not communist or socialist, but have a liberal socialist view on domestic policies and a liberal-free market economic system.
I think the consensus is that their has never been true communism or socialism for anything more than few fleeting minutes - but is is the same with capitalism. Whilst socialism is ended by mans natural instinct - to give himself a better chance of survival than the next man - by holding stores, be it of food or money or Masteratis, and gaining influence, either through friendship and trust or business and politics, capitalism is ended by liberals and do gooders who think they know better.
True capitalism has only ever existed for seconds at a time, during wars or the agreement of international treaties - where some one was fairly beaten or something war fairly bargained for.
Capitalism seeks weath. If you are too much of a retard to think wealth only means money, have a nice life eating shit people have spoon fed to you.
These are the parts of man that stop communism / socialism frow working. Let it be known now that you accept communism exists only on paper and can never work in the size of societies we have now. Even tiny ones struggle and fuck up. Look at the kibbutz's - even there, someone was fucking somone else over some how.
If you think communism, socialism or anything like it could exist, then you deny that man has the natural instincts I outlined above and if you deny that then you are fucking stupid.
All of the contries you mentioned do have one thing in common - they are all mediocre.
Its called hope. Good luck in the society you push where the population have none, ground down by hard lives of no choice.
:facepalm:
It's called a carrot.
What choices do you have that individuals in Sweden, France, etc, do not?
Until you can provide and example of a communist state that lasted 5 years, admit you are retarded.
It may be a carrot if you have a collective dream of 'we must industrialise and rid ourselves of peasentry' is your dream. However, accept that men have individual dreams that can never be realised in communism.
As for the freedoms I enjoy? Well, it is a damn site easier to do business in the UK than france and sweden. Let us not forget, only near a hundred years ago these countries consisted of one or two large cities and a countryside full of peasents living in hovels and huts. Socialist economic policies were the ways the governments of those countries in the past have coerced the population to do as the government wishes. Afterall, it must be better for a person to earn for example, 100 francs and give 50 of them to the government than it is for a man to earn 50 and give 10.
Until you understand that man needs as much freedom of expression as he can. When a man does business, the only other person who should have a say in the deal is the man he is doing business with. Anything other than that and you are say everyone is to stupid to look after themselves.
Sure, the redistrobution of wealth and giving the means of production to the man might mean that everyone gets fed, but they also have to live the same life and it would be boring and you would be denying people human instincts, wants and needs.
It would destroy the minds of many. It is not acceptable for what it would achieve which would quickly fail.
How quaint you should mention sweden. When I want to move to a country that has no standing whatso ever on the interantional stage, I will probably move there. You, however, seem to be confusion socialist welfare policies with full blown socialist / communist state.
You just keep failing and failing. I know it must be hard to understand if it is something you believe in, but communism and socialism are crazy fantasies that only lead to bad things.
Let it sink in.
Lieutenant Viktor Ivanovich Belenko has a much different take on why the Soviet Union collapsed as do that vast majority of political scholars. I read his book in 1983 when it was published. That year, when Reagan was touring the strength of the "Evil Empire" I told anyone who would listen that the C.C.C.P. would not last another 10 years.
The following is a review of one reader from the Amazon page for his story, Mig Pilot
I know you believe you are right about communism with all your heart. But the bottom line is you are dead wrong. Ask anyone who has lived in any communist nation if they prefer communism over capitalism. Or ask one of the more than 2 .6 million East Germans escaped to West Berlin or West Germany from 1949 to 1961 which system they prefer. Certainly the 50's and 60's had to be the zenith of the Soviet Union. Or ask yourself why did 2.6 million people escape from just one of their "satellite" countries in the 20 year period? Or ask one of the over 15 million immigrants who emigrated from Soviet-occupied eastern European countries to the west in the five years immediately following World War II if they prefer communism.
The bottom line is you don't know half of what you think you do about communism. If you did, first hand, like the folks I have mentioned above, you would be singing a different tune.
Funny thing that you mention health care. I am semi-retired and have no coverage ATM. I am in need of two surgeries. One for a torn rotator cuff and one for a hernia. I am scheduled for the shoulder procedure on March 30, 2011 at no expense whatsoever to me. Courtesy of a capitalist program called HCAP. My surgery, rehab, and meds will be covered 100%. I have my choice of any orthopedic surgeon who practices within the Cleveland Clinic Health Care System. The guy who I chose also does orthopedic procedures on many of the Cleveland Browns, Cleveland Indians, and Cleveland Cavilers. So you see, living in a capitalist society, at no cost to me, (by virtue of the taxes I and others have paid over the years) I will be treated by the same surgeon who also treats many millionaires in my area.
As for the outsourcing that is due to socialist policies from socialist democrats like Carter, Clinton, and Obama. Such as NAFTA, and Clinton's drastic reduction of Tariffs to Asia and China in particular. So of course the CEO's are going to move manufacturing jobs to a cheap labor base where high tariffs will not offset their increased profits. Anyone in their right mind would do the same. It is not the fault of the "capitalist" CEO's as they are only reacting intelligently to current market conditions which were created by socialists politicians.
Disagree till your eyes pop out, it does not change the facts. look at any communist nation in the last 100 and your disagreement becomes meaningless.
You are making some assumptions boyo.
You pick up on spelling but refuse to refute communism is in direct contradiction to human nature. You also fail to mention in those 'oh so nice to live' countries that they have massive suicide rates. Men in sweden off themselves for sport. Same is true in france, but they hush it up a bit more and more of them get written off as 'accidents'.
Yeah, those countries are great.
I also disagree that true Socialism never existed. It existed in the USSR and in China under Mao Tse Tung. Like I said before the USSR failed because of the Arms race and the war in Afghanistan combined with Gorbachavs well meaning but mismanaged policies of Perestroika and Glasnost.
You say to ask the people who left these countries but imo that's like asking Michael Moore what Bush was like.Even though bush sucked it would still be a clearly biased opinion if you asked someone like Moore.
Stalin was even recently voted the 3rd greatest Russian of all time in Russia http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7802485.stm
Nostalgia for the Brezhnev era also remains strong in Russia http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/19/world/europe/19russiansumm.html
Under Socialism the USSR became a superpower and most accounts of atrocities committed during that time especially during Stalins reign are greatly exaggerated. As far as it going against human nature can you explain how capitalism which is nothing but a disguised slavery fits in to human nature? How does working or a greedy owner who doesn't pay you the true value of the labor seem natural? Or the politicians wgho got elected because their great grand dad was a billionaire even though said politician did nothing himself to deserve that wealth? Examples include Bush Kennedy and Rockefeller.
I think that there are many humans who do not desire great material wealth and would be satisfied in a communist system, but they would have to be separated from those who enjoy capitalism.
I'm not advocating communism.
I don't think a variation of less than 2% between the US and those 'oh so nice countries' count as conclusive evidence that socialism makes people want to off themselves. Indeed Australia has a smaller percentage of suicides but that's well within the margin of error so i won't use that as "evidence".
I'm sure the American bible-belt has no problems with suicide and is very open and frank about it.
I did make a counter point to your "against human nature" claim. Something that TDR picked up on. The UN regularly conducts studies on corruption and the countries i mentioned always come up on top.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
Something you must understand is that i am not arguing for communism, i am arguing for socialism. If you don't understand the difference you shouldn't be discussing it.
Do you attend any classes? If so let me know what you will be taking next semester and where. I will sign up and we will ask the professor to grade us both in a socialist fashion. You can bust your ass and put forth A effort and I will grab ass as I stare out the window for the entire semester with an F effort. Then when he uses the socialist model to grade us we can both enjoy our C.
This analogy was shitty and flawed when my asshole economics teacher used in in highschool and it's shitty and flawed now.
People don't all start life with the same amount of money the way that everyone in school starts with the same grade.
So you know more than someone with teaching degree?
In a socialist system people may not start out the same but the ultimate goal is that they all end up the same. But since all you are capable of contributing to this thread is name calling and derision we can't really expect a quality point of view on anything from you now can we?
Funny thing is that that analogy is acceptable in most honest academic circles. But what the fuck do they know compared to you?
We aren't doing this again lol
Doing what? Watch you bury yourself in a pile of stupid again?
In a socialist country you don't get paid if you dont do anything. It's not like how modern progressivs have it where some nigger can just sit around having kids and get welfare. You have to contribute to the collective good in order to receive. So no you wouldn't get a "C for an F effort".
Yeah, that is the theory, but in practice (as pointed out ITT by dr rocker and as shown by the history of the C.C.C.P. and Red China) people only do the bare minimum to get by when they are not permitted to keep the lions share of the fruit of their own labor.
You see that is what all the supporters of communism and or socialism who live in a free market system fail to grasp. Marx and Lenin had great theory in paper. But they both failed to factor individual human greed and desire to be free to pursue their own interest into their theory.
You simply can't change human nature by making laws. Until those who think communism and socialism can wrap their head around that cold hard fact, which history has shown to be immutable, they can never understand the error of their judgment.
I just amazes those of us who know this whenever we have this conversation with those who don't. And until they learn this there is no fixing their faulty thinking. But don't worry as you grow older, and hopefully start to accumulate wealth of your own, you will learn it without even realizing when it happened.
The funny thing is the only folks I have ever met that are against a free market are those who are too young, too stupid, or too lazy to acquire anything of significance by their own efforts. Being as you just turned 21 I will be kind and assume you are just too young.
I believe that it's possible to change human nature through years of conditioning. People have been conditioned to think in certain ways and hold certain beliefs at various times in history. At one point in time people were so conditioned by the church that they followed the popes every word and even when dirt poor would give to the church. Some still do. At one point people were conditioned and used to a tribal society then a feudalist society.
Now they are conditioned into a capitalist based society. Why couldn't they be conditioned into a socialist society? It wouldn't happen overnight but it could happen through a process of revolution and reeducation. Especially educating the youth through school that this is the way society works now from a very young age. The old capitalist ideals would be destroyed and all elements of capitalist thinking would be purged. You would have to basically destroy modern culture and everything associated with it and bring in a new one. Much like the cultural revolution under Mao. It may even have to happen at the expense of millions o lives but I believe the ends justifies the means in that case. Once the youth are indoctrinated with socialism since birth you would begin to see a change in human nature.
A lot of socialists try to deny the fact that a lot of people would have to die for it to work but I'll admit that it's necessary. Most business owner, preachers and a lot of educators to name a few would have to die. Even though it seems brutal I think in the end it could be a good thing. A bloodless revolution and transformation just isn't possible.
Dude, people have been greedy since the first caveman smashed the skull of the first murder victim with a thigh bone or whatever. You are not going to recondition that out in 100 generations. That is why communism will not work/
I added to the previous post apparently while you were replying so you may have missed it that expanded on how it would happen. In short a complete cultural revolution would happen. You would have to destroy capitalist culture and all that it's associated with. Pol Pot was on the right track but managed it very poorly.
You might be able to destroy a capitalist system but ask yourself this. Did cavemen have any concept of communism or capitalism? No, but they understood and operated on greed. You have to face that humans are hard wired to look out for themselves and those whom they hold dear even if it has to be at the expense of other humans outside of their circle of trust. You are not going to change the core program after millions of years of evolution. Instead of trying to change humans to fit communism (which is impossible) your time would be better spent trying to tweak capitalism and the U.S. Constitution to ensure that white collar criminals are given the most severe punishments possible under law.
In other words think of capitalism and communism as holes and people as pegs. In this analogy people would be square pegs, communism would be a round hole and Capitalism would be a square hole that is just a bit too small.
Now in this scenario what would be the intelligent approach to getting 6 billion plus pegs into the box with the two holes on the top?
- Shave of 24 billion plus corners.
- Enlarge one square hole to be perfect fit.
- Enlarge on round hole to allow the round pegs to pass 6 billion pegs through in a manner (which due to a less than optimal relationship between peg and hole) that has the potential to cause a smaller square peg to get caught sideways in a round hole that is too large.
inb4JAAsayshittyanalogyjustlikewhateverwhenigotf'satschoolOh, you are painting a great image of this utopian view of the future.
Your argument basically states 'Kill all of those who disagree then no one will disagree'. You are a moron.
Look above where I said wealth does not have to mean money. Wealthy in freedom of association, personal choice and travel have allways been there in any fully socialist / communist state.