How do you like the Totse of today? — Totseans

How do you like the Totse of today?

RaggedOldManRaggedOldMan Regular
edited August 2011 in Spurious Generalities
I've been doing some reading. Ever since I signed up here, I've been looking around the internet trying to get my head around what this place was once all about. I found some information on Wikipedia very helpful, describing to me the rise and fall of Totse. I also found out that a lot of totse.com users shipped over to that other shitty forum, and that some guys went over to another Totse website. After looking around both of them I have decided that totse.info is my favorite one :)

But that's beside the point. My point is - what do YOU guys think of the way everything has turned out so far? What do you think of Totse.info, the Totse culture and community? Do you like what it's become, or would you wish that totse.com still existed?
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Comments

  • thewandererthewanderer Regular
    edited August 2011
    I wish that totse.com was still around, of course.
    I like this place too though. Just wish that BB would be more active but I can't complain too much about it because pyrotechnic forums are in decline across the whole internet.
  • edited August 2011
    The Totse of today is great, in my opinion. Never before have I come across such an interesting forum which is literally jam-packed with information and good discussion. Sure, it has it's slow days but what can you expect from a new forum? One of the main attractions for me is the opportunity to help build something epic. Helping out on a website is something I've always wanted to do, and having the chance to get in on Totse really means something to me. This is why I am so committed to making this place better, and reaching out to as many people as possible. To cut a long story short, I love the Totse of today.
  • TheWitchDoctorTheWitchDoctor Regular
    edited August 2011
    I love Totse. I feel like this forum is one big family. There's a big variety of people and with that comes a variety of information on tons of subjects.

    That being said though, I wish the forums were more active. I regret never posting on the old Totse and now I'm breaking out of my lurker shell, but the forums just feel so dead sometimes.

    Also, this place is a complete fucking dick fest. Seriously, we need some bitches in here. We have ShadyTroll, but s/he's just that. Then there's ducklips but she's buddha's wife or some shit so I doubt we'll get to see her tits. Look at 4chan, girls post tits there daily and even the old Totse had tits being posted. We need to find a way to get more girls in here.
  • edited August 2011
    Blah blah titties blah

    There are more than enough places on the internet to look at whatever you want to see happen. Rule 34.

    Id rather a forum where ideas and knowledge are exchanged rather than camwhoring attention spamming dramafag bullshit.

    The totse of today strikes me as being semi-autistic, loner and combative. There isnt that positive collaborative feel that it used to have - the internet itself has changed greatly though, as has society.

    Sadly this all is reflected here.

    ArmsMerchant is likely long gone, infared also - people who had sacks of life experience and insight to situations just arent using totse these days; it is stagnating and there is no motivation for people of a higher calibre to join because while a place like &t was once rare - the interwebs are everywhere.
  • edited August 2011
    ^ It's been online for a year dude, what do you expect? A lot of veterans won't come here because it's not as active as totse.com, so we have to reach out to new users by writing content for the site. This takes time, a lot of effort and dedication, etc etc. Most of all, it takes time and patience. If people like you stick around and contribute a lot, we'll build faster and get somewhere a lot sooner than if you come and go, just saying that "the site's dead".

    :)
  • BurnBurn Regular
    edited August 2011
    I didn't go anywhere near totse for the first few times it came up on Google searches, as I got it confused with goatse:facepalm:

    Anyway, never created an account, only ever read the text files. So really, I have nothing to compare it to. But this place is pretty damn cool anyway.
  • edited August 2011
    Hahahaha. That's cool Burn, glad you found us and I really do hope you stick around. How did you find Totse.info? Through Google searches?
  • SlartibartfastSlartibartfast Global Moderator -__-
    edited August 2011
    The old totse was a pioneering concept. It was an innovative concept. Jeff, whatever you say about him, was a visionary. He saw the computer as an empowering concept for the counterculture movement. The closest thing to it back then was THE WELL (A still active subscription based BBS/forum).

    The Idea of the computer and leftism has always been around (read: From Satori to Silicon Valley) but we are one of the few holdouts. Reddit is what totse would have been if Jeff had sold the site.

    This forum is great. It has curious/intelligent users and we work fucking hard. We have everything but large members. However we have quality members and this site is nothing near dead. We produce more content than even old totse.
    The old totse text-files were not all written for totse most were horded from all the BBSs (back when everything was a text file)

    Our slow growth is partly due to our antiquated and noble goal of seeing the internet as a positive and empowering. Back then everyone on the network was a nerd (whose nature is generally more open to what we are doing), now everyone is an idiot who thinks of the internet as facebook/youtube/porn/bittorrent. We are now fringe, and are drowned out. New member come one-by-one.

    We also tend to see totse with nostalgic tinted glasses.

    totse.info is one of the few place were mods don't give you a warning for not being PG-13. The underlying ideology of totse is active here.

    EDIT: The tl;dr meme is a good summary of what most of the internet has become. This is why i hate this phrase.
  • DfgDfg Admin
    edited August 2011
    Oh well.

    The old Totse was amazing, the concept was interesting and everything worked for them. In that era places like totse were rare and people were just trying to understand the power of the Internet. People looked for rare sources of information and most of all, the old Totse felt like a community.


    The new Totse is a baby, it's still learning things and like the new generation, it will use whatever resources it can (Social Networks, Media, Radio, Interviews, Publications) to survive. This place is powered by people who are dedicated as any Prophet in the history of man kind. If I die today, I would die with a smile because regardless of what others think, I had the time of my life working on this project and I will continue on working on it unless I get killed :).

    This is our home, it's a place where totseans can unite and become a positive force in the world.
  • RemadERemadE Global Moderator
    edited August 2011
    Dfg wrote: »
    If I die today, I would die with a smile because regardless of what others think, I had the time of my life working on this project and I will continue on working on it unless I get killed :)

    This.
  • Darth BeaverDarth Beaver Meine Ehre heißt Treue
    edited August 2011
    At least the new totse has an active admin that gives a shit about the community. Will this be totse.com? Let's hope not.
  • easy-eeasy-e Acolyte
    edited August 2011
    Dfg wrote: »
    Oh well.

    The old Totse was amazing, the concept was interesting and everything worked for them. In that era places like totse were rare and people were just trying to understand the power of the Internet. People looked for rare sources of information and most of all, the old Totse felt like a community.

    ]The new Totse is a baby, it's still learning things and like the new generation, it will use whatever resources it can (Social Networks, Media, Radio, Interviews, Publications) to survive. This place is powered by people who are dedicated as any Prophet in the history of man kind. If I die today, I would die with a smile because regardless of what others think, I had the time of my life working on this project and I will continue on working on it unless I get killed :).

    This is our home, it's a place where totseans can unite and become a positive force in the world.
    The Totse I remember from 10 years ago was awesome. The forum and the level of content took a major dive the last few years before it closed up. The best thing for the community as a whole was to divide up. I feel like Zoklet was too close to the original totse forums so I joined Totse2. Since you guys broke off into "dot info" this has actually turned into a decent site. I really don't understand the rivalry some people pretend is there.

    Overall I like the progress Totse2 and dot info have made into being how the original Totse was and should have been if it weren't for all the trolling and dumbfuckery. Yes, that shit still happens but it's not the only thing happening.
  • DfgDfg Admin
    edited August 2011
    easy-e wrote: »
    The Totse I remember from 10 years ago was awesome. The forum and the level of content took a major dive the last few years before it closed up. The best thing for the community as a whole was to divide up. I feel like Zoklet was too close to the original totse forums so I joined Totse2. Since you guys broke off into "dot info" this has actually turned into a decent site. I really don't understand the rivalry some people pretend is there.

    Overall I like the progress Totse2 and dot info have made into being how the original Totse was and should have been if it weren't for all the trolling and dumbfuckery. Yes, that shit still happens but it's not the only thing happening.

    Bro we support our Totsean sister site :)
  • BurnBurn Regular
    edited August 2011
    trx100 wrote: »
    Hahahaha. That's cool Burn, glad you found us and I really do hope you stick around. How did you find Totse.info? Through Google searches?

    Well I was a member of totse2 for a short while, but it's just shit over there. Never bothered signing up to Zoklet.

    I think I first found totse.info on youtube... can't quite remember. Someone was commenting about how the real totse is back. So I came straight here.
  • easy-eeasy-e Acolyte
    edited August 2011
    Dfg wrote: »
    Bro we support our Totsean sister site :)
    Definitely
    Burn wrote: »
    Well I was a member of totse2 for a short while, but it's just shit over there. Never bothered signing up to Zoklet.

    I think I first found totse.info on youtube... can't quite remember. Someone was commenting about how the real totse is back. So I came straight here.
    Any forum is only as good as you make it...You can choose to have a positive experience or a negative experience. Bottom line is to contribute and hope other people are interested in the same topics you are.
  • BurnBurn Regular
    edited August 2011
    Yeah you're right. Totse2 never really was that bad. In the end, I think I just mainly cracked it and left because MarchOfClouds was bitching in every thread about something. That chick gave me the shits.
  • easy-eeasy-e Acolyte
    edited August 2011
    Yeah, I'm surprised Arnox and Hazza32 haven't run off more people...the list is kind of long actually.
  • thewandererthewanderer Regular
    edited August 2011
    There's no reason why we all can't have a multiple totse citizenship.
  • BurnBurn Regular
    edited August 2011
    Ahh, the dragonfag. I forgot about him.
  • Gary OakGary Oak Regular
    edited August 2011
    I'm quite happy about this site. I kind of like the small size too, as it allows me to become familiar with everybody. If we had around 50-60 more regular contributing useful members it would be perfect.
  • edited August 2011
    The size of our site at the moment is really great. I'm not saying that I don't want it to expand, as that would be silly. However, we've built up a relationship between ourselves which is very close and I think that it's a very important factor in our success. We'll stick together through thick and thin, and even when new members sign up, all the original Totse.info crew still exists :) It's cool.
  • edited August 2011
    Right now its a whole lotta people who talk about how things used to be, and others who want to get it back to that level.

    The game has changed. Nostalgia doesnt win any prizes.

    When it happened i didnt understand, and i'll remain a contributing member - but now i understand why jeff hunter did what he did, and he did the right thing.

    There was the noobsamis, the quality was degrading signficantly and it was dying. Just like there is a lack innovation here, this shit is mainstream. Those anonymous faggots are mainstream and the entire thing is a clusterfuck.

    The solution isnt making a slightly different version of the predecessor - its going boldly where nobody has gone before; and if its a shithouse place to be we'll soon find it out.



    What i really learnt most from totse shutting down is that each and every person on this site has the ability to manipulate the world in one way or another. We have seen internet counterculture become mainstream. Reddit youtube hits = viral success money. And we are deep in the belly of this internet beast because we were part of a time when there was a community on the internet that wasnt politically correct moderated facebook intergrated marketing driven; Lurkers included. We all lurked at first - only massive *chan attention whores jump straight into commenting.

    Its almost a decade since i registered on totse and it gave me many of the tools ive used to succeed in life. Some legal, some not. But everything is different now.

    I dont think this totse will be to others what first totse was to me, heres hoping it gets close.


    But seriously - back in the day if you dropped a gem on bad ideas it'd go to the right people and you'd all feed back - its not like that anymore.
  • DfgDfg Admin
    edited August 2011
    Right now its a whole lotta people who talk about how things used to be, and others who want to get it back to that level.

    The game has changed. Nostalgia doesnt win any prizes.

    When it happened i didnt understand, and i'll remain a contributing member - but now i understand why jeff hunter did what he did, and he did the right thing.

    There was the noobsamis, the quality was degrading signficantly and it was dying. Just like there is a lack innovation here, this shit is mainstream. Those anonymous faggots are mainstream and the entire thing is a clusterfuck.

    The solution isnt making a slightly different version of the predecessor - its going boldly where nobody has gone before; and if its a shithouse place to be we'll soon find it out.



    What i really learnt most from totse shutting down is that each and every person on this site has the ability to manipulate the world in one way or another. We have seen internet counterculture become mainstream. Reddit youtube hits = viral success money. And we are deep in the belly of this internet beast because we were part of a time when there was a community on the internet that wasnt politically correct moderated facebook intergrated marketing driven; Lurkers included. We all lurked at first - only massive *chan attention whores jump straight into commenting.

    Its almost a decade since i registered on totse and it gave me many of the tools ive used to succeed in life. Some legal, some not. But everything is different now.

    I dont think this totse will be to others what first totse was to me, heres hoping it gets close.


    But seriously - back in the day if you dropped a gem on bad ideas it'd go to the right people and you'd all feed back - its not like that anymore.

    Well, people grew up and walked away. We started in July 2010. If we went up right after Totse Shutdown, I am sure we might retain some quality but looking at &Z I am bit glad we avoided that clusterfuck. In reality it's a lot harder to find gems on the Internet, most people are focuses on making money using these technologies and don't really want to SHARE things. But we're slowly getting there, we're on a road to recovery and each day we try something new and try to move this place on wards.
  • easy-eeasy-e Acolyte
    edited August 2011
    It's hard to know what gems are anymore. There is so much (mis)information on the internet. I feel like social networking has changed the internet scene enough that the internet is less for information and more for bullshitting/socializing. While I do all of the social networking stuff to keep in touch with friends who have moved away, events my customers put on, etc...it's slowing dumbing down the generations after me.

    I've been trying to find something new that hasn't been done before for the last few years. Four years ago I was working at an electronics manufacturing company that had a hobby robotics retail/online store. I didn't like Arduino and we were selling the Wiring boards which I wasn't a fan of either. Hind sight says that if I had not have quit 3.5 years ago things might have turned out differently. One of the guys I worked with was pushing me to port Arduino onto a new board he designed and I "tried" but I didn't put as much effort into it as I probably should have. They ended up closing the store. I love my new job though.
  • RemadERemadE Global Moderator
    edited August 2011
    I agree with easy-e in the sense that Social Networking has changed the internet. I have a feeling, like I said in Teamspeak last night, that it's "dumbed down" the Internet. For example people know how to use MSN messenger and Facebook, but introduce them to a .zip or .rar file and they'll shit a brick. If anything the Internet and technology in general has become more advanced, but visibly flooded with idiots. Communities exist whereby information is shared in a non &T fashion (and by that I mean it's all legal, whereas we tend to be a "grey area" how I see it).
    The ToTSE of today will never be like the .com domain I knew, but it can be as close to it in the sense of this new age of Internet. There is nothing stopping it from becoming that - we just need more contributions, regularly, and a way of maintaining the "cloak" that the original .com domain had. It seemed to be the dark corner of the 'net, and we can still become that, and to an extent we are - but things take time.

    We need constructive discussions - like those seen in the Backyard Ballistics or Tech forums. They are places people post things they intend on doing and even I have learnt basic things thanks to them. Places like that should be seen in all of the forums here. I'm a firm believer in keeping on topic and adding to things. Another great example was the guide posted earlier this week about smuggling shoes. I mentioned them in one of my guides, and this user then built upon what I had said by adding pictures etc. That's the sort of thing we need in order to move forwards.
  • edited August 2011
    I really would like to get more information posted in the tech forums which we have here. Computer hacking and crime is on the rise, and I think that information in that area would be a great idea.If I can get some more ideas then I'll write some more stuff :)
  • GoingNowhereGoingNowhere Global Moderator
    edited August 2011
    There is a part of me that wishes that Totse.com still existed, and that reason is purely for nostalgic purposes because it is the website which was most prominent in my childhood and so I have very fond memories of it. However, I got involved with Totse.info a whole lot more than Totse.com, and therefore have gotten to know the members of this community. I dont think I would have bothered to do that at Totse.com, and therefore enjoying being on this website more than all the years I spent on &.com.

    At this present moment in time we have everything going for us and things can only get better: Pro-active admins and moderators who continually endeavor to improve the website and a strong community. The two things that we do need it content and members, and they will both come in time.

    Kudos to you for creating a very thought-provoking thread.
  • easy-eeasy-e Acolyte
    edited August 2011
    trx100 wrote: »
    I really would like to get more information posted in the tech forums which we have here. Computer hacking and crime is on the rise, and I think that information in that area would be a great idea.
    I've never met a "hacker" that would share enough information to be useful to me. I'm a programmer but i feel retarded when it comes to that kind of stuff.
  • edited August 2011
    Yeah, that hacking route is a long and winding one. You have to learn a LOT for yourself, which sucks. I post things as soon as I learn them though, so maybe if I become some kind of 1337 hacker in the next year or two then I'll share it with totse :)
  • LordWormLordWorm Regular
    edited August 2011
    I agree with a lot of the opinions here; the internet has changed, and so has the nature of sites like Totse. Back in the 'information age' of the internet (Which really wasn't that long ago), Totse could thrive as an empire, because it precisely fit the model of what the internet was, and went above and beyond by offering fringe knowledge and discussion. These days, we've entered the era of social networking, where people are more concerned with bringing their personal lives online than sharing information with anonymous strangers. As a result, we see the birth of abominations like Facebook, Twitter, etc. and a substantial decrease in the average internet user's IQ, while the former giants like Totse, RogueSci, etc. take a significant hit and/or drop off the face of the Earth due to inactivity or deterioration of user contributed content. Like it or not, Jeff Hunter pulled the plug on the original &T not because he's a douche bag who was too lazy to maintain it, but because it needed to be done. The site had degraded so much over the last couple years of its existence that it simply wasn't capable of functioning at the level it once reached in the early 2000's.

    Totse.info is essentially a refugee for the few individuals who remain from the era that once made &T great. It will never accomplish what the original did, but we shouldn't expect it to. Times are a changin', and we probably won't see a site of this nature rise to the top anytime in the near future.

    That said, I'm pretty happy with this place, given the current circumstances. Most of the members here are interesting and quite knowledgeable people, and though .info is small, it churns out a lot of useful info and discussion. It's just too bad that for the most part it falls on deaf, Facebook addicted ears.
  • blink182blink182 Acolyte
    edited August 2011
    I wasn't on totse.com for very long at all but I feel like something about this site that's both good and bad in a way is that there's very little teen angst or experimentation on here. It's all a bunch of 20-50 year olds who used to do shit but are now "retired". Which is good in a way, but also takes some of the fun I guess.
  • fanglekaifanglekai Regular
    edited August 2011
    This place went to shit ages ago. It never took off and it's not going to. It's been over a year and you still have 15 members online at any given time. The latest bullshit I've seen is the skype and teamspeak meetings the staff have to attend. I mean really? Let me save you some time: type. shit. out. It's a forum for fuck's sake. Use the forum platform to promote the forum. If you can't even do that then the platform is worthless and you're fucking retarded.

    This site sucks for several reasons:

    1. there's no good content, just shitloads of porn.
    2. very few members.
    3. very little posting.
    4. no clear direction for the site.

    so basically you've got nothing. the old totse had numbers and it had interesting content. people wanted to go there to read shit. this place is not drawing in many members. why? shit content. people can get porn anywhere. porn does not make this place unique.

    so no, this place is nothing like totse.com. It's not innovative and it's not going anywhere. so far all the advertising campaigns have failed. this place has lost a lot of the good members it had and i don't see many new ones joining.

    but by all means keep on at it. i'm sure some of you will give it another 6 months to a year before realizing that this place is never going to go anywhere or be anything.
  • Darth BeaverDarth Beaver Meine Ehre heißt Treue
    edited August 2011
    fanglekai wrote: »
    This place went to shit ages ago. It never took off and it's not going to. It's been over a year and you still have 15 members online at any given time. The latest bullshit I've seen is the skype and teamspeak meetings the staff have to attend. I mean really? Let me save you some time: type. shit. out. It's a forum for fuck's sake. Use the forum platform to promote the forum. If you can't even do that then the platform is worthless and you're fucking retarded.

    This site sucks for several reasons:

    1. there's no good content, just shitloads of porn.
    2. very few members.
    3. very little posting.
    4. no clear direction for the site.

    so basically you've got nothing. the old totse had numbers and it had interesting content. people wanted to go there to read shit. this place is not drawing in many members. why? shit content. people can get porn anywhere. porn does not make this place unique.

    so no, this place is nothing like totse.com. It's not innovative and it's not going anywhere. so far all the advertising campaigns have failed. this place has lost a lot of the good members it had and i don't see many new ones joining.

    but by all means keep on at it. i'm sure some of you will give it another 6 months to a year before realizing that this place is never going to go anywhere or be anything.

    So why do you post here moron?
  • fanglekaifanglekai Regular
    edited August 2011
    why do u respond to me, moron?
  • Darth BeaverDarth Beaver Meine Ehre heißt Treue
    edited August 2011
    fanglekai wrote: »
    why do u respond to me, moron?

    Morons typically answer questions with questions to hide the fact that they are butt hurt.
  • fanglekaifanglekai Regular
    edited August 2011
    Morons typically answer questions with questions to hide the fact that they are butt hurt.

    cry harder try harder
  • Darth BeaverDarth Beaver Meine Ehre heißt Treue
    edited August 2011
  • fanglekaifanglekai Regular
    edited August 2011
    pussynigger.jpgawesome content!
  • BigHarryDickBigHarryDick Cock Bite
    edited August 2011
  • Darth BeaverDarth Beaver Meine Ehre heißt Treue
    edited August 2011
    lol.

    Aww, how cute, your girlfriend got her feelings hurt and you ran in to hold her hand.
  • BigHarryDickBigHarryDick Cock Bite
    edited August 2011
  • Darth BeaverDarth Beaver Meine Ehre heißt Treue
    edited August 2011
    Read it again, real slow, and move your lips this time.
  • BigHarryDickBigHarryDick Cock Bite
    edited August 2011
    anyway, Totse.com had a purpose.

    .info is a playground where i can shit in.
  • Darth BeaverDarth Beaver Meine Ehre heißt Treue
    edited August 2011
    anyway, Totse.com had a purpose.

    .info is a playground where i can shit in.

    Not for long, your type is on the way out.
  • BigHarryDickBigHarryDick Cock Bite
    edited August 2011
    sure buddy.
  • DfgDfg Admin
    edited August 2011
    fanglekai wrote: »
    This place went to shit ages ago. It never took off and it's not going to. It's been over a year and you still have 15 members online at any given time. The latest bullshit I've seen is the skype and teamspeak meetings the staff have to attend. I mean really? Let me save you some time: type. shit. out. It's a forum for fuck's sake. Use the forum platform to promote the forum. If you can't even do that then the platform is worthless and you're fucking retarded.

    This site sucks for several reasons:

    1. there's no good content, just shitloads of porn.
    2. very few members.
    3. very little posting.
    4. no clear direction for the site.

    so basically you've got nothing. the old totse had numbers and it had interesting content. people wanted to go there to read shit. this place is not drawing in many members. why? shit content. people can get porn anywhere. porn does not make this place unique.

    so no, this place is nothing like totse.com. It's not innovative and it's not going anywhere. so far all the advertising campaigns have failed. this place has lost a lot of the good members it had and i don't see many new ones joining.

    but by all means keep on at it. i'm sure some of you will give it another 6 months to a year before realizing that this place is never going to go anywhere or be anything.

    Cry harder, Try harder?

    You're always bitching about that. Even on T2 and now on T.info. Seriously I am glad you ran away. Stop being butthurt.
  • edited August 2011
    And here we have a prime example of the fast and effective derailment of an otherwise interesting thread.

    Trolling, arguing on the internet, name calling, keyboard warrior internet tough guys are the scourge of forums - the kill them. They stifle innovation, thoughts, discussions and they do it exceedingly well.

    We are not a community we are randoms on a website who argue irrationally with each other over things that are not important to life. Totse is no longer improving your skills, knowledge or thinking skills.


    The whole internet used to be about those three things, but now its mostly about image macros and HERP DERP LEEEEGION.

    Rome has fallen.
  • easy-eeasy-e Acolyte
    edited August 2011
    We are not a community we are randoms on a website who argue irrationally with each other over things that are not important to life. Totse is no longer improving your skills, knowledge or thinking skills.
    I think this is perfect practice for the Totse debate team.
    The whole internet used to be about those three things, but now its mostly about image macros and HERP DERP LEEEEGION.
    Three things? I thought it was always about Porn?
  • DfgDfg Admin
    edited August 2011
    And here we have a prime example of the fast and effective derailment of an otherwise interesting thread.

    We are not a community we are randoms on a website who argue irrationally with each other over things that are not important to life. Totse is no longer improving your skills, knowledge or thinking skills.
    Well, we're working on just doing that. This is SG and people tend to always point out the negatives. I have been quite busy these past days but I am still working on making things work. A little patience is all I ask :).
  • Darth BeaverDarth Beaver Meine Ehre heißt Treue
    edited August 2011
    sure buddy.

    Mark my words BHD, things are changing. This is not totse.com and never will be. This is the future not a place for you to shit. Change your ways or you will be gone within the month. That is not a threat or a promise it is a predication. One made based on knowledge you do not posses and I do.

    There are many changes in the works, positive changes, changes that will distinguish .info from all the other clones, changes that some will rabble rabble about. All things change and that which does not withers and dies. So either get with the program or be left on the outside looking in kid.
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