Running 220v off of two 110v sockets?

fagfag Regular
edited March 2012 in Life
So say one has a machine that runs on 220v. BUT, it only needs about 5 Amps max at 220v, which is a very modest demand, considering 220v appliances are typically well above that..

So, would it be possible to connect two 110v sockets in series so you have 220v in parallel?

Comments

  • imoscardotcomimoscardotcom Acolyte
    edited February 2012
    While my electrical knowledge doesn't extend very far beyond some increasingly hazy HS science classes, I think most 110/220v devices run on different A/C frequencies. So you might run into trouble there depending on the device you're trying to run.
  • Darth BeaverDarth Beaver Meine Ehre heißt Treue
    edited February 2012
  • DaktologistDaktologist Global Moderator
    edited February 2012
    From my limited knowledge of the US electrical system, there is 240 volts between black and red and 120 volts between white and both red and black. A 220 volt appliance will take 240 volts easily. Most appliances have a tolerance of +- 30 volts or more.

    Don't try connecting two sockets in series, You will either blow something up/kill yourself/burn your house down or more.
  • easy-eeasy-e Acolyte
    edited February 2012
    Short answer, yes.
    Fixed...

    A normal US breaker panel has a 110v bus. When an appliance needs 220 two 110 lines are run from a 220 breaker to the appliance. You can use two 110 breakers but it's a safety issue as they both won't trip if there is a problem. As long as you are only pulling 5 amps and using two 20amp 110 outlets then that will be fine. Ground/neutral is common through every outlet.

    The difference comes if you need 220 3-phase. Then you need a phase converter or 3-phase service brought into your panel.
  • Darth BeaverDarth Beaver Meine Ehre heißt Treue
    edited February 2012
    In other words, no.
  • chippychippy <b style="color:pink;">Global Moderator</b>
    edited February 2012
    The question was can you get 220v from 2 110v sockets. The answer is no. Connect them in parallel and you can double the current you can pull. connect them in series and as soon as you connect the neutral from one to the live of the other it will go bang. Connect from live of one to the live of the other and you will get 0v

    As for rigging the distribution board, do you really think someone who asked such a question should be fucking around with it?
  • easy-eeasy-e Acolyte
    edited February 2012
    chippy wrote: »
    The question was can you get 220v from 2 110v sockets. The answer is no. Connect them in parallel and you can double the current you can pull. connect them in series and as soon as you connect the neutral from one to the live of the other it will go bang. Connect from live of one to the live of the other and you will get 0v

    As for rigging the distribution board, do you really think someone who asked such a question should be fucking around with it?
    A normal 220 plug has 2 hots and a neutral or 2 hots, a nuetral and a ground. Each of the hots are only 110v. It's not like batteries where you can connect them in parallel or series.

    When you measure between the hots you get 220 volts. When you measure from one of the hots to ground or neutral you get 110v. I've installed and troubleshooted these outlets numerous times and I welcome you to grab a multimeter and prove me wrong.

    Here are 2 pictures for reference.

    dryer_outlet.jpg

    4prong_range_outlet.jpg
  • Darth BeaverDarth Beaver Meine Ehre heißt Treue
    edited February 2012
    In other words, no.
  • chippychippy <b style="color:pink;">Global Moderator</b>
    edited February 2012
    easy-e wrote: »
    A normal 220 plug has 2 hots and a neutral or 2 hots, a nuetral and a ground. Each of the hots are only 110v. It's not like batteries where you can connect them in parallel or series.

    When you measure between the hots you get 220 volts. When you measure from one of the hots to ground or neutral you get 110v. I've installed and troubleshooted these outlets numerous times and I welcome you to grab a multimeter and prove me wrong.

    Here are 2 pictures for reference.

    dryer_outlet.jpg

    4prong_range_outlet.jpg

    I see what you are saying, but that doesnt answer the question does it.

    Can you get 220v from 2 110v outlets

    What you are referring to aren't 110v outlets are they?

    ETA I just noticed you also say 110v from live to ground. Don't you guys have earth leakage protection over there?
  • easy-eeasy-e Acolyte
    edited February 2012
    chippy wrote: »
    I see what you are saying, but that doesnt answer the question does it.

    Can you get 220v from 2 110v outlets

    What you are referring to aren't 110v outlets are they?
    Those plugs are "220" plugs. And yes you can. It's not "safe" because both breakers won't trip at the same time if there is a problem.
    chippy wrote: »
    ETA I just noticed you also say 110v from live to ground. Don't you guys have earth leakage protection over there?
    That's one of the great things about Tesla's Alternating Current is that you don't have a return line back to the generator/power plant. It's not like positive and negative/ground in a DC circuit. Most receptacle boxes are "grounded" but ground and neutral are usually tied to the same bus in the panel. None of the places I've lived or worked have had earth leakage protection.

    Edit: They have all had ground rods with a copper braid run directly up into the panel for ground.
  • Darth BeaverDarth Beaver Meine Ehre heißt Treue
    edited February 2012
    So in other words, NO!
  • chippychippy <b style="color:pink;">Global Moderator</b>
    edited February 2012
    easy-e wrote: »
    Those plugs are "220" plugs. And yes you can. It's not "safe" because both breakers won't trip at the same time if there is a problem.


    That's one of the great things about Tesla's Alternating Current is that you don't have a return line back to the generator/power plant. It's not like positive and negative/ground in a DC circuit. Most receptacle boxes are "grounded" but ground and neutral are usually tied to the same bus in the panel. None of the places I've lived or worked have had earth leakage protection.

    Edit: They have all had ground rods with a copper braid run directly up into the panel for ground.

    so you weren't addressing the question then as you were referring to 220v outlets.

    BTW they arent plugs. the plug plugs into the socket or outlet.

    And yes you do have earth leakage protection over there, only you call it Ground-fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) protection.

    I would refrain from giving advice on electrical questions till you grasp a bit more knowledge if I were you, you may do someone an injury.
  • easy-eeasy-e Acolyte
    edited February 2012
    chippy wrote: »
    so you weren't addressing the question then as you were referring to 220v outlets.
    He has a 220v plug and he need to wire a 220 outlet from two 110 outlets. So yes I am answering OP's question.
    chippy wrote: »
    BTW they arent plugs. the plug plugs into the socket or outlet.
    Plugs and outlets are wired in the same configuration.
    chippy wrote: »
    And yes you do have earth leakage protection over there, only you call it Ground-fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) protection.
    Only very new houses have whole house GFI protectors. We usually have GFI outlets and they are only in the bathroom and kitchen. The rest of the house or building is usually unprotected.
    chippy wrote: »
    I would refrain from giving advice on electrical questions till you grasp a bit more knowledge if I were you, you may do someone an injury.
    If someone is asking on this website then they obviously have no fear. Who are you to question my credentials? You are the one who is doesn't know how outlets are wired.
  • chippychippy <b style="color:pink;">Global Moderator</b>
    edited February 2012
    So, would it be possible to connect two 110v sockets in series so you have 220v in parallel?

    Which part of the above op don't you understand.

    And yes I question your credentials. you call a socket a plug. You think AC doesnt need a return path. And you havent addressed the op's question, rather side tracked it to explain how a 220v outlet is wired.

    As for knowing how a socket is wired, I have part P domestic installation qualifications.

    And the answer to the original question is still NO
  • Darth BeaverDarth Beaver Meine Ehre heißt Treue
    edited February 2012
    easy-e wrote: »
    He has a 220v plug and he need to wire a 220 outlet from two 110 outlets. So yes I am answering OP's question.


    Plugs and outlets are wired in the same configuration.


    Only very new houses have whole house GFI protectors. We usually have GFI outlets and they are only in the bathroom and kitchen. The rest of the house or building is usually unprotected.


    If someone is asking on this website then they obviously have no fear. Who are you to question my credentials? You are the one who is doesn't know how outlets are wired.
    chippy wrote: »
    Which part of the above op don't you understand.

    And yes I question your credentials. you call a socket a plug. You think AC doesnt need a return path. And you havent addressed the op's question, rather side tracked it to explain how a 220v outlet is wired.

    As for knowing how a socket is wired, I have part P domestic installation qualifications.

    And the answer to the original question is still NO

    In other words....

    FUCKNO.png
  • easy-eeasy-e Acolyte
    edited February 2012
    chippy wrote: »
    fag wrote: »
    So, would it be possible to connect two 110v sockets in series so you have 220v in parallel?
    Which part of the above op don't you understand.

    And yes I question your credentials. you call a socket a plug. You think AC doesnt need a return path. And you havent addressed the op's question, rather side tracked it to explain how a 220v outlet is wired.

    As for knowing how a socket is wired, I have part P domestic installation qualifications.

    And the answer to the original question is still NO
    OP's assumption of how AC works was incorrect as you can't wire AC outlets in series because it will blow your breakers. I was explaining how OP could wire a 220v outlet from two 110v outlets because a 220v outlet is two 110v lines in parallel. I was explaining the correct way to do it. If OP wanted 220v on 1 wire and not using a standard US 220v outlet then he needs to use a step up transformer. There are plenty of devices that convert 110 to 220 so European can use their shit in the USA.

    If OP is using an american device then he could also just connect one 110 line from one outlet to both hot connectors on his 220 plug/outlet. He's probably pulling 5 amps total or 2.5amps per wire.
  • Darth BeaverDarth Beaver Meine Ehre heißt Treue
    edited February 2012
  • chippychippy <b style="color:pink;">Global Moderator</b>
    edited February 2012
    easy-e wrote: »
    OP's assumption of how AC works was incorrect as you can't wire AC outlets in series because it will blow your breakers. I was explaining how OP could wire a 220v outlet from two 110v outlets because a 220v outlet is two 110v lines in parallel. I was explaining the correct way to do it. If OP wanted 220v on 1 wire and not using a standard US 220v outlet then he needs to use a step up transformer. There are plenty of devices that convert 110 to 220 so European can use their shit in the USA.

    If OP is using an american device then he could also just connect one 110 line from one outlet to both hot connectors on his 220 plug/outlet. He's probably pulling 5 amps total or 2.5amps per wire.

    :facepalm: I give up :facepalm:
  • GoingNowhereGoingNowhere Global Moderator
    edited February 2012
    Wish I could add something here, but I have no clue about electrics. My dad was an electrical engineer for Western Power Distribution, but I haven't really picked anything up :)
  • Darth BeaverDarth Beaver Meine Ehre heißt Treue
    edited February 2012
    easy-e wrote: »
    OP's assumption of how AC works was incorrect as you can't wire AC outlets in series because it will blow your breakers. I was explaining how OP could wire a 220v outlet from two 110v outlets because a 220v outlet is two 110v lines in parallel. I was explaining the correct way to do it. If OP wanted 220v on 1 wire and not using a standard US 220v outlet then he needs to use a step up transformer. There are plenty of devices that convert 110 to 220 so European can use their shit in the USA.

    If OP is using an american device then he could also just connect one 110 line from one outlet to both hot connectors on his 220 plug/outlet. He's probably pulling 5 amps total or 2.5amps per wire.


    The amperage used is entirely dependent upon the number of watts demanded by the device you plug into the socket for a circuit. The formula = volts X amps = watts. 120 volts x 20 amps = 2400 watts. You should only load a circuit to 80%. So a 20 amp circuit should never be asked to draw more than about 1900 watts on a 20 amp circuit to play it safe.
  • DaktologistDaktologist Global Moderator
    edited February 2012
    chippy wrote: »
    I see what you are saying, but that doesnt answer the question does it.

    Can you get 220v from 2 110v outlets

    What you are referring to aren't 110v outlets are they?

    ETA I just noticed you also say 110v from live to ground. Don't you guys have earth leakage protection over there?


    In the US they use split phase. In other words the neutral is the secondary windings centre tap on the supply transformer. The two lines are 180 degrees out of phase so there is voltage between them and half that between the live and neutral centre tap which will be grounded via the MEN system (what it is referred as here). Basically it grounds the neutral so in the event of a line to ground fault, the breaker will trip due to over current. It also causes a voltage difference from line to earth equal to the line voltage.

    Here in NZ we have single phase 230 volt supplies running to our homes. The neutral is bonded to ground at the supply transformer, the metering cabinet and the switchboard in the house as well as any sub switchboards on the supply line. In the event of say my fridge the phase or line connection in US English contacts the grounded metal chassis of my fridge, a high current will flow tripping the breaker as current will flow from the phase line, through the fridge chassis and back into the grounding conductor which is bonded to the neutral bus bar in my switchboard completing the circuit. Invariably there is also full line voltage between phase and my lawn as the neutral is connected to the grounding rod outside via the bonded neutral and earth bus bars in the switchboard.

    An earth leakage breaker or GFCI or RCD as we call them (residual current device) works by detecting the balance of current flowing in both the line and neutral lines using a current transformer. When both line and neutral are carrying equal current, no voltage is present on the current transformer output as they cancel one another out. However if there is an imbalance due to a line to earth fault or even a neutral to earth fault in the connected device then a voltage will be present on the current transformer output which causes the sensing circuit to cut power to its output.
  • DaktologistDaktologist Global Moderator
    edited February 2012
    The amperage used is entirely dependent upon the number of watts demanded by the device you plug into the socket for a circuit. The formula = volts X amps = watts. 120 volts x 20 amps = 2400 watts. You should only load a circuit to 80%. So a 20 amp circuit should never be asked to draw more than about 1900 watts on a 20 amp circuit to play it safe.

    This is true with DC but with AC current there are a few more variables when ohms law is used. If the device is purely resistive then the calculations are the same but if it is say an electric motor, then you have reactance to deal with. Basically with an inductive load like a motor, due to the fact that the current lags the voltage by a varying degree then the power consumed will be slightly more even though it may only be a 1000 watt motor. Its known as power factor and a resistive load will have a power factor of unity or 1 where is a motor may have a lagging power factor of say 0.7 as it is an inductive load. Same with computer power supplies, as they are generally capacitive they have a leading power factor of around 0.9 or more.

    Without getting into the physics and hard electrical theory, there are the basics.
  • Darth BeaverDarth Beaver Meine Ehre heißt Treue
    edited February 2012
    And with all of this great information provided by the various poster ITT the answer to the OP is still no.
  • fagfag Regular
    edited February 2012
    I figured out a halfass macguyver solution which is cheaper than buying a transformer. It involves a battery charger and THIS!

    http://www.amazon.com/Power-Bright-ERP400-12-220-50-Inverter/dp/B001S0ILLQ/ref=pd_cp_e_0
  • MarineBoatMarineBoat Regular
    edited March 2012
    j6tsas.jpg
    Made it just for this occasion.
  • bornkillerbornkiller Administrator In your girlfriends snatch
    edited March 2012
    MarineBoat wrote: »
    Made it just for this occasion.
    Your graphical representations are surpassed. More concise than google maps. I applause you. :thumbsup:
  • DfgDfg Admin
    edited March 2012
    I learned, laughed and enjoyed this thread. Thanks.
  • Issue313Issue313 Acolyte
    edited March 2012
    fag wrote: »
    I figured out a halfass macguyver solution which is cheaper than buying a transformer. It involves a battery charger and THIS!

    http://www.amazon.com/Power-Bright-ERP400-12-220-50-Inverter/dp/B001S0ILLQ/ref=pd_cp_e_0

    Remember those inverters typically throw out a square wave, not a nice clean sinusoidal wave like you get in the mains. And you better throw in a battery too, as a charger is going to have circuitry inside it that will output more than a clean 12v (actually car batteries typically charge at 13.8v before internal resistance is taken into account). Or use a power supply, but again, a lead acid accumulator to smooth out the voltage is still a good idea for many applications.
  • DaktologistDaktologist Global Moderator
    edited March 2012
    Issue313 wrote: »
    Remember those inverters typically throw out a square wave, not a nice clean sinusoidal wave like you get in the mains. And you better throw in a battery too, as a charger is going to have circuitry inside it that will output more than a clean 12v (actually car batteries typically charge at 13.8v before internal resistance is taken into account). Or use a power supply, but again, a lead acid accumulator to smooth out the voltage is still a good idea for many applications.


    They refer to it as "modified sine wave". It isn't true square wave but is derived from it somewhat. Below is a photo of my oscilloscope screen showing the output of my UPS compared to a true sine wave. Looking at that inverter, it has a 50 Hz output. Since i'm sure he is in the US chances are his device is expecting 60 Hz power. If it has an induction motor in it or other frequency dependent devices in it, the motor will run slower or the device may not work as intended. Again it depends on the application.

    SAM_0843.jpg

    SAM_0647.jpg
  • MarineBoatMarineBoat Regular
    edited March 2012
    fag wrote: »
    I figured out a halfass macguyver solution which is cheaper than buying a transformer. It involves a battery charger and THIS!

    http://www.amazon.com/Power-Bright-ERP400-12-220-50-Inverter/dp/B001S0ILLQ/ref=pd_cp_e_0

    You're better off getting 2 isolation transformers and wiring them with primaries in parallel and secondaries in series. Or just one step-up tranny made for the purpose. Or 4 microwave transformers if they're identical.
  • DfgDfg Admin
    edited March 2012
    They refer to it as "modified sine wave". It isn't true square wave but is derived from it somewhat. Below is a photo of my oscilloscope screen showing the output of my UPS compared to a true sine wave. Looking at that inverter, it has a 50 Hz output. Since i'm sure he is in the US chances are his device is expecting 60 Hz power. If it has an induction motor in it or other frequency dependent devices in it, the motor will run slower or the device may not work as intended. Again it depends on the application.

    SAM_0843.jpg

    SAM_0647.jpg


    I should consider getting one of those. Inverters are generally Modified Sine Wave and UPS are usually True Sine Wave but that's what the box says in my case.
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