Okay, so seriously, if God is all loving... — Totseans

Okay, so seriously, if God is all loving...

Totse BotTotse Bot Banned
edited August 2010 in Spurious Generalities
...Then why does he send us to Hell? I've never gotten an answer to this.

Pain and suffering for all eternity? I wouldn't wish that on anyone, no matter what they've done, let alone not believing in something.

It just... It's confusing. I kinda want to believe in God; he seems like a cool guy. :o But then I hear this crap about him sending us to Hell? Even a simple explanation like he gets off on it would do.
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Comments

  • Malcolm XMalcolm X Regular
    edited July 2010
    there is no answer to it. Because I don't think its true. I'm pretty sure "Hell" is just a device used to scare people straight because logically speaking a "benevolent" God would not do such a thing to you.
  • Totse BotTotse Bot Banned
    edited July 2010
    Malcolm X wrote: »
    there is no answer to it. Because I don't think its true. I'm pretty sure "Hell" is just a device used to scare people straight because logically speaking a "benevolent" God would not do such a thing to you.

    Yeah, you're probably right.
  • MegalodonMegalodon Regular
    edited July 2010
    You are God (we all are). The only one sending you to "Hell" will be yourself. You create your reality. Spread love and you will receive Heaven.
  • Big baby jesusBig baby jesus Regular
    edited July 2010
    Hell is withdrawing into the self instead of working for the greater good of humanity. If you screw people over to gain material wealth or power then God's gonna screw you over for eternity, since you didn't live according to His plan.
  • ArmsMerchantArmsMerchant Acolyte
    edited July 2010
    I think most people would agree that Pope John Paul II is a fairly authoritative source for info on Hell.

    He has stated that Hell is not a location, but a state of mind people choose to be in, when they make a decision to reject God, however they conceive of him/her/it/them/whatver.

    Hell is a myth, no such place. The myth was started by the priesthood to keep the flock in line, which kind of backfired.
  • Malcolm XMalcolm X Regular
    edited July 2010
    I think most people would agree that Pope John Paul II is a fairly authoritative source for info on Hell.

    He has stated that Hell is not a location, but a state of mind people choose to be in, when they make a decision to reject God, however they conceive of him/her/it/them/whatver.

    Hell is a myth, no such place. The myth was started by the priesthood to keep the flock in line, which kind of backfired.

    So what about all the references to a "lake of fire" in Revelations?
  • KundaLiniKundaLini Regular
    edited July 2010
    God sends you to hell? Or do you?
  • ImaginariumImaginarium Regular
    edited July 2010
    We create our own hell, we alone are responsible for our heavens & hells. There's no point to either believing or disbelieving in God, whichever you engage it I'm sure it is entirely irrelevant to Him. All that counts is action.
  • edited July 2010
    OP, an even more frequently asked question regards the "problem of evil." If God is all-good and all-loving, why does he allow bad things (i.e. job loss, illness, terrorist attacks, starvation, rape, etc.) to happen to people?

    Let's look at the premises:

    1. God is all-loving.
    2. God is all-powerful.
    3. BUT evil still exists in the world.

    If 1 and 2 are true, then 3 cannot be. If God "loves" us (1), why would he allow/orchestrate evil? If God loves us (1) and is all-powerful (2), then he could intervene to make everyone's lives a little bit easier. So either (1) is false and (2) is true, (2) is true and (1) is false, or both are false.

    Also, there is no such thing as God.
  • Totse BotTotse Bot Banned
    edited July 2010
    Well, I understand the bad things that happen on Earth. They're things we create out of our own free will; we're only human. But in Hell... we can't control anything. Pain for all eternity. That's fucked up. :o Seriously, even for God.
  • AzureAzure Acolyte
    edited July 2010
    God doesn't send anyone to hell, you send yourself there.
  • StephenPBarrettStephenPBarrett Adviser
    edited July 2010
    If you're referring to the christian god then it isn't all loving by any means. I'm pretty sure that god hates homosexuals and people who don't worship it and Egyptians.
  • ImaginariumImaginarium Regular
    edited July 2010
    ^^You mean the Abrahamic god? Because if you look, all that nonsense started in the OT and Jesus kinda tried to say, "Oi, fuck the law, it's the age of the spirit." but no one really listened anyway.
  • DailyDaily Regular
    edited July 2010
    Blunderful wrote: »
    Well, I understand the bad things that happen on Earth. They're things we create out of our own free will.

    What about things that are out of our control?

    Earthquakes, tornadoes, tsunamis...there is no way for mankind to prevent these disasters but they still occur. If God is so omnipotent and benevolent, why does he allow all of these things to happen?
  • ImaginariumImaginarium Regular
    edited July 2010
    The truth is we just have limited scope. What if an earthquake killed off one species but allowed for the birth of a new, more advanced species? You don't see anyone being butt hurt over the dinosaurs dying.
  • DailyDaily Regular
    edited July 2010
    The truth is we just have limited scope. What if an earthquake killed off one species but allowed for the birth of a new, more advanced species?

    When has that happened though? There's been plenty of "advanced" animal species that existed thousands of years which have died and were not followed by any other evolved form. An extinct animal like the saber tooth cat used to hunt on large animals such as mammoths and boars. What cats in modern day hunt on animals like those? We have tigers that hunt on deers and other weak creatures.
  • ImaginariumImaginarium Regular
    edited July 2010
    That still doesn't make our scope of understanding any less limited. Have you never sacrificed one thing for something greater?
  • DailyDaily Regular
    edited July 2010
    wHO HASN'T YO
  • Totse BotTotse Bot Banned
    edited July 2010
    YA BUT THE EARTHQUAKE DOESNT LAST AN ETERNITY! :o
  • ObbeObbe Regular
    edited July 2010
    Every moment is an eternity. Now is eternal.
  • DailyDaily Regular
    edited July 2010
    The future is in 1 second.
  • KundaLiniKundaLini Regular
    edited July 2010
    From one second.
  • The GeneralThe General Regular
    edited July 2010
    God sends us to hell for not accepting his son Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. You see God gives most of us many years to find Jesus and most don't. If you don't seek and find him in this lifetime you will end up in hell in your next.
  • Malcolm XMalcolm X Regular
    edited July 2010
    So people who are born into different religions automatically go to he'll for not accepting Jesus right?
  • L33tzL33tz Regular
    edited July 2010
    i tend to agree with this

    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091023135703AANnzkg
    An article by 'answering christianity'

    "11:107
    Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please; surely your Lord is the mighty doer of what He intends.
    11:108
    And as to those who are made happy, they shall be in the garden, abiding in it as long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please; a gift which shall never be cut off.

    Note that Heaven is "a gift which shall never be cut off" (11:108), whereas Hell lasts only so long "as your Lord please" (11:107)."





    This obviously makes sense. The concept of a Hell where sinners will burn forever and ever is contradictory to God's mercy. In the Quran it says that God wrote "My mercy overpowers my anger". Hell is a place of punishment, and a vent for God's anger against those that have rejected him. But after all his mercy overpowers his anger, and eventually all will be forgiven. Even Satan.






    The author says-
    http://www.answering-christianity.com/he…

    "Hell according to Islam will eventually be empty. The following Verses are further explained in full details in the article:

    "To those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance, no opening will there be of the gates of heaven, nor will they enter the garden, until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle: Such is Our reward for those in sin. (The Noble Quran, 7:40)"

    "Then Jesus said to his disciples, 'I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.' When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, 'Who then can be saved?' Jesus looked at them and said, 'With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.' (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 19:23-26)"

    In Noble Verse 7:40 above, we clearly see a promise from Allah Almighty to let all of the disbelievers enter Paradise if the miracle of the Camel going through the needle's eye happens. Jesus peace be upon him did talk about the same miracle and said that it is humanly impossible, but definitely possible with GOD Almighty.

    I do believe Jesus' Saying in Matthew 19:23-26 is Truthful and not corrupted because it is fascinating that Allah Almighty inspired Jesus to talk about the miracle of the camel going through the needle's eye long before Allah Almighty revealed it in the Noble Quran.

    Some say that the claim in Noble Verse 7:40 is as INFORMAL as us saying "this will happen when pigs fly" or "this will happen when cows climb the wall"; that in other words it is impossible for the disbelievers to leave Hell.

    Well, Allah Almighty in the Noble Quran is very pithy and formal. He says the least words with the most meaningful meanings. In Noble Verse 7:40, I strongly believe that He made a clear PROMISE to the disbelievers and not an informal and SARCASTIC statement, because He certainly can make pigs fly and cows climb walls, and yes, he also can make a camel go through a needle's eye. Nothing is impossible to Him.

    Also, when Allah Almighty is determined to accomplish something, all He needs to do is imagine it, and then say to it "Be" and it becomes: "It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is. (The Noble Quran, 19:35)"

    If Holly Wood today can shoot a movie clip showing a giant camel passing through a needle's eye with their highly advanced and sophisticated digital technology, then Allah Almighty can certainly make that a reality if it's in His Holy Imagination.

    So therefore, there is no proof that Allah Almighty was being sarcastic in Noble Verse 7:40."
  • SilosighbinSilosighbin Regular
    edited July 2010
    There is no God.

    starving-child-sudan.jpg
    starving-child.jpg
  • Totse BotTotse Bot Banned
    edited July 2010
  • ObbeObbe Regular
    edited July 2010
    There is no God.

    Sure there is. Those children are staving because you haven't done anything about it.
  • edited July 2010
    Blunderful wrote: »
    ...Then why does he send us to Hell? I've never gotten an answer to this.

    kinda like how your dad sent u to rehab, he loves u and he did it for your own good.

    sure .... a few days without drugs seemed hellish and felt like an eternity .... but once you recovered .... you'll know it's not.

    once u repent in hell ... then you'll realize that it's not that bad and that long after all.
  • fanglekaifanglekai Regular
    edited July 2010
    Obbe wrote: »
    Sure there is. Those children are staving because you haven't done anything about it.

    Yeah, someone should go build them some churches.
  • DysgraphiaDysgraphia Locked
    edited July 2010
    kinda like how your dad sent u to rehab, he loves u and he did it for your own good.

    sure .... a few days without drugs seemed hellish and felt like an eternity .... but once you recovered .... you'll know it's not.

    once u repent in hell ... then you'll realize that it's not that bad and that long after all.

    :facepalm: Repenting in hell is futile. Burning and agonizing for eternity is what you'll get. There's no way out. It's not rehab you dummy. You're there for life AND BEYONDD!!!
  • ObbeObbe Regular
    edited July 2010
    fanglekai wrote: »
    Yeah, someone should go build them some churches.

    That won't satisfy their hunger or nourish their bodies. But managing the worlds resources differently would sure help.

    The conclusion that God does not exist, does not follow from the fact that some people are starving. If you really sit down and think about it - or about anything, really - you eventually realize that it involves everything. The Whole picture. And this interconnection, this unity of all things (including things that may seem contradictory, like inside and outside or life and death) is what I mean by God.
  • CrazzyassCrazzyass Regular
    edited July 2010
    Theologically speaking, Blunderful, hell is less of a punishment for actions taken and rather a state of being due to being a failed being. Ever notice that the world kind of sucks ass? It's because people, at their core, are terrible, selfish, destructive beings. That selfishness, that homicidal/suicidal desire is what prompts separation from god and holiness. Your actions are simply a symptom, not the cause, of the root issue.
  • Name's TakenName's Taken Acolyte
    edited August 2010
    Crazzyass wrote: »
    Theologically speaking, Blunderful, hell is less of a punishment for actions taken and rather a state of being due to being a failed being. Ever notice that the world kind of sucks ass? It's because people, at their core, are terrible, selfish, destructive beings. That selfishness, that homicidal/suicidal desire is what prompts separation from god and holiness. Your actions are simply a symptom, not the cause, of the root issue.
    If we assume that:
    'God'=All knowing
    'God'=Creator


    'God' created you knowing exactly what would happen to you, yet continues letting you suffer due to the flaws that 'God' created you with.

    PARAGON OF LOVE
  • StephenPBarrettStephenPBarrett Adviser
    edited August 2010
    starving-child.jpg

    You just gave me my new background. Thanks.
  • ashenbloodashenblood Acolyte
    edited August 2010
    Without pain, how could we appreciate joy? But yeah, hell in the Christian sense doesn't exist.
  • DailyDaily Regular
    edited August 2010
    starving-child.jpg

    The guy who took this picture caused suicide because he felt guilty for taking a picture first, and THEN helping the child. Even though the photographer did eventually rush the child to a nurse or something, he couldn't live with himself for waiting for the vulture to get into the right position and everything...

    After a year of recognition (he won awards for this picture since it depicted the life of Africa, etc) he crawled inside his car and went to sleep with the engine on.
  • DirtySanchezDirtySanchez Regular
    edited August 2010
    There is no God.

    starving-child-sudan.jpg
    starving-child.jpg

    Sure there is. Its just that black people dont have souls:p God can still e loving and there be a hell in my opinion. Think about it like this he put forth the option just believe in him and your saved. But why would he care to help those that reject him and his existence. you reject and mock him he mocks you. Now I dont think if you've been raised as a Hindu you whole life and never read a bible you'd go to hell. In the end god knows your heart and takes that into account.
    of course some religions believe hell IS more like a rehab so to speak you only go until your purified. I think Islam teaches that. I think when it comes down to it hells reserved for those that completely reject god and his ways. And reject good. The amount that actually go to hell has been exaggerated by organized religion to scare people I think. However I believe it is a real place.
  • CrazzyassCrazzyass Regular
    edited August 2010
    If we assume that:
    'God'=All knowing
    'God'=Creator


    'God' created you knowing exactly what would happen to you, yet continues letting you suffer due to the flaws that 'God' created you with.

    PARAGON OF LOVE

    Technically, I was "created" by my parents. Giggity giggity. My suffering would be an extension of my fallen state, passed down to me.

    One might argue that he did create Adam and Eve and as a result is still responsible for what would happen to me indirectly, however it was not his will that was followed. In fact, he was disobeyed, and the consequences that were promised occurred.

    Of course, the story of Adam and Eve is probably more of a metaphor for the beginnings of humankind in general, but they were likely given a similar choice and they obviously took the wrong one. God is all-knowing, yes, but he does not control our will. It was still their choice, and it is still our choice.
  • DysgraphiaDysgraphia Locked
    edited August 2010
    Daily wrote: »
    The guy who took this picture caused suicide because he felt guilty for taking a picture first, and THEN helping the child. Even though the photographer did eventually rush the child to a nurse or something, he couldn't live with himself for waiting for the vulture to get into the right position and everything...

    After a year of recognition (he won awards for this picture since it depicted the life of Africa, etc) he crawled inside his car and went to sleep with the engine on.

    Next time you give a blurb, at least include a source.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Carter
    On 27 July 1994 Carter drove to the Braamfontein Spruit river, near the Field and Study Centre, an area where he used to play as a child, and took his own life by taping one end of a hose to his pickup truck’s exhaust pipe and running the other end to the passenger-side window. He died of carbon monoxide poisoning at the age of 33. Portions of Carter's suicide note read:

    "I am depressed ... without phone ... money for rent ... money for child support ... money for debts ... money!!! ... I am haunted by the vivid memories of killings and corpses and anger and pain ... of starving or wounded children, of trigger-happy madmen, often police, of killer executioners...I have gone to join Ken if I am that lucky."[5]
  • DailyDaily Regular
    edited August 2010
    Dysgraphia wrote: »
    Next time you give a blurb, at least include a source.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Carter

    Yeah, yeah...I just read about this like a year ago, I didn't remember the guy's name or anything.
  • DysgraphiaDysgraphia Locked
    edited August 2010
    Daily wrote: »
    Yeah, yeah...I just read about this like a year ago, I didn't remember the guy's name or anything.

    Cool. Thanks for the share. It's kinda freaky how the guy committed suicide. Won't the photograph have made him rich and all?
  • CrazzyassCrazzyass Regular
    edited August 2010
    Dysgraphia wrote: »
    Cool. Thanks for the share. It's kinda freaky how the guy committed suicide. Won't the photograph have made him rich and all?

    :rolleyes:
  • Name's TakenName's Taken Acolyte
    edited August 2010
    Crazzyass wrote: »
    Technically, I was "created" by my parents. Giggity giggity. My suffering would be an extension of my fallen state, passed down to me.

    One might argue that he did create Adam and Eve and as a result is still responsible for what would happen to me indirectly, however it was not his will that was followed. In fact, he was disobeyed, and the consequences that were promised occurred.

    Of course, the story of Adam and Eve is probably more of a metaphor for the beginnings of humankind in general, but they were likely given a similar choice and they obviously took the wrong one. God is all-knowing, yes, but he does not control our will. It was still their choice, and it is still our choice.

    He knew exactly what they would do. He is all knowing. He created them knowing full well they'd disobey him and he would punish them. Free will does not exist if he is omniscient.

    God would have known when he created adam and eve, that down through the generations, you would be born and the fallen state would be passed onto you. (Deu 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin, hypocrisy much?) Thus he chose to damn you to hell for all eternity because he is a gigantic faggot and got butthurt when his creations did exactly as he knew they would when he made them.

    He knows every little thing we will do. It was him who made us with the flaws and biases that lead to us acting in certain ways. How can that be free will?

    tl;dr your god is an ugly hate filled tyrant.
  • ImaginariumImaginarium Regular
    edited August 2010
    In the gnostic version of Adam & Eve, it's actually Christ that hands over the apple of knowledge, not Satan. The gnostic Jesus was a subversive & a revolutionary against the God of the Materia.
  • CrazzyassCrazzyass Regular
    edited August 2010
    In the gnostic version of Adam & Eve, it's actually Christ that hands over the apple of knowledge, not Satan. The gnostic Jesus was a subversive & a revolutionary against the God of the Materia.

    Which is a pretty interesting concept, really, especially if you consider how the New Testament is radically different than the Old Testament. It would seem like Christ was rebelling against the strict Jewish system.
  • DirtySanchezDirtySanchez Regular
    edited August 2010
    Crazzyass wrote: »
    Which is a pretty interesting concept, really, especially if you consider how the New Testament is radically different than the Old Testament. It would seem like Christ was rebelling against the strict Jewish system.

    What gnostic gospel is this in? Ive been doing some reading on the gnostic and this is interesting. I know they view the god of the old testament the "demiurge" as different then Elohim but I didn't know it says Jesus gave them the apple.
  • CrazzyassCrazzyass Regular
    edited August 2010
    What gnostic gospel is this in? Ive been doing some reading on the gnostic and this is interesting. I know they view the god of the old testament the "demiurge" as different then Elohim but I didn't know it says Jesus gave them the apple.

    I wish I knew. It's just something I've heard over and over again. Ask the person I quoted, they might know.
  • CrazzyassCrazzyass Regular
    edited August 2010
    He knew exactly what they would do. He is all knowing. He created them knowing full well they'd disobey him and he would punish them. Free will does not exist if he is omniscient.

    God would have known when he created adam and eve, that down through the generations, you would be born and the fallen state would be passed onto you. (Deu 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin, hypocrisy much?) Thus he chose to damn you to hell for all eternity because he is a gigantic faggot and got butthurt when his creations did exactly as he knew they would when he made them.

    He knows every little thing we will do. It was him who made us with the flaws and biases that lead to us acting in certain ways. How can that be free will?

    tl;dr your god is an ugly hate filled tyrant.

    Not necessarily. They would seem mutually exclusive but aren't inherently. Explain how free will would cease to exist in the case of an omniscient being, keeping in mind that the image most have of God is grossly inaccurate. He's not a superhuman, he's more of a personification of love and justice. It goes beyond the way our mind conciously perceives events/thoughts/etc.

    Another misconception, is that he damns you to hell for your actions. It is really more of the fact that our condition is reprehensible to his nature and cannot be tolerated. If you've ever taken a realistic look at yourself and the world you quickly realize we're all backstabbing assholes who deserve eternal damnation. It's pretty evident.
  • edited August 2010
    Dysgraphia wrote: »
    :facepalm: Repenting in hell is futile. Burning and agonizing for eternity is what you'll get. There's no way out. It's not rehab you dummy. You're there for life AND BEYONDD!!!

    dude ... your interpretation of christianity is extreme. It's christian like you that'd strap bombs to yourself and then blow yourself up in crowded places and giving christians a bad name.

    Moderate up.
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